Wednesday, May 31, 2006

The Religion Is Gone, But The Prejudice Remains

In an otherwise good post by JE Holman, contributor on Debunking Christianity I found the following objectionable statement:

"I'm afraid of our nation having to one day face greater difficulties because of religiously influenced leaders and commanders who feel compelled to put our soldiers in harm's way out of the Christian compulsion to keep helping the Jews fight their wars, while it costs the lives of our boys in green."


To which I replied:

"You may not realize it, but your charge of the US fighting wars for the Jews is highly offensive. Nothing could be further from the truth, and this is the last place I expected to see a typical anti-semetic blood libel. If you are the open-minded skeptic that you claim to be, you wouldn't believe all of the claims you hear from the left without investigation."

I was rather surprised at the answer that I recieved from Mr. Holman. Instead of a honest quest for knowledge and clarification, I got a very defensive diatribe full of christian prejudice.
The following is his response, with my own thoughts interspersed in blue.


First, I am no leftist. I'm not a rightist either. I am a staunch independent. Second, I have a decent grasp of political knowledge, nothing to brag about, but decent.

This is true, if decent means almost no knowledge of middle east politics.

I research everything I write before I write it. If I am found to be wrong, I'll gladly stand corrected.

Good, I'll look forward to your retraction.


The reference you are taking offense to was a small side point in my article, and a summation of a fact about what motivates America -- Christian religion. Christianity was being faulted, not Judaism.

I never claimed that Judaism was being faulted, only that you make an unfounded accusation of the Jewish people.


Whether it's in the past or present, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam end up creating factions and wars. Always has been this way.The very reason you are taking issue with this is because your people are in a religious holy war over land and religion.

Obviouly, you understand nothing about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Israel is a secular democracy, not a theocratic state. Its founders were mostly secular Jews. The secular government of Israel has no religious agenda, it has only the security of its citizens in mind. Israel has demonstrated in the past that it has been willing to give up land for peace.

It should sicken you.

What sickens me is the venomous hatred and callous disregard for life of the Arab/Islamic terrorists.


Third, I am no where close to anti-semitic.

I'll bet that some of your best friends are Jewish.

It's just that you guys tend to see everything as anti-semitic.

"You guys"? I've heard that before.

It sounds like a classic projection of the old Persecution Complex. You know, in this stupid, paranoid day and age, even if you don't like rap, you're basically a racist! Get off persecution and racism claims. They've lost their power because everyone has abused them.

Perhaps you are right. Just because a third of my people were mudered just 60 years ago, and Iran is currently threatening six million Jews in Israel today is no cause for alarm. I guess I am just too sensitive.



Fourth, the US is fighting Jewish wars for them in some very real ways. At least, that's what it amounts to. By talking about fighting the Jew's wars for them, I was talking about the US's Christian compulsion to support and help Jewish causes because of Jesus and their belief that he is returning to re-establish the Kingdom on Earth, save the Jewish people...the throne of David...etc. Just listen to John Hagee, who represents most of orthodox Christianity on this.

Silly me, I thought that the US was fighting wars to protect itself from terrorism.


I catch the Dennis Prager and Michael Medved shows quite often, and callers call in vouching for the need to bless and help Israel financially and otherwise.

Dennis Prager and Michael Medved are christian ass-kissers. Their views do not represent the majority of Jews. They are pandering to a christian audience.


I heard a commercial about this very subject just the other day. Tons of campaigns are being run with these goals in mind.

It must be the vast Jewish conspiracy at work again.

You can't even turn on TBN without all those religious commercials about cruises to the Holy Land with Pastor so-and-so. You don't think all this influences American thought and war motives, especially when some profit is involved (aka "oil")??? You don't think Bush's "God told me to invade Iraq" thinking had something to do with this??? Think again, my friend.

No sir, it is you that needs to think again. If the US was really fighting a war for Israel, why didn't it fight Iran which is a much greater threat to Israel, or the palestinian terrorists which are the most immediate threat?

I once published an article by an Orthodox Jew when I was editor of the College Hill Counselor on how much Christians have done for Judaism, and that's why, he said, all Jews should praise the US's efforts.This obsession saturates our leadership and filters down into their decisions. We've done so much in those holy land disputes, I couldn't list it all here. Israel and the US are superclose allies for obvious religious reasons.

Yet another myth perpetrated by the anti-semitic left.
Israel and the US are allies because Israel is the only stable democratic state in the region that guarantees rights for all its citizens regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation. In fact, it is the only state in the region in which women are not second class citizens, and in which homosexuality is not a criminal offense.
Israel has been a bastion of freedom in the region during the years of the cold war, and today fights for the same freedoms that Americans hold dear (and take for granted).
We are always discussing sanctions and other consequences for totalitarian and human rights abusing nations. Should we not support a nation that has democratic freedoms? Especially in that part of the world?

I think you realize this and only take offense to the part about Israel needing the help to fight off those Islamic savages over there. I cant help that.

Israel has been far more successful than the US in fighting terorism. Except for US soldiers supervising patriot missiles during the first Gulf war, no US soldier has ever fought for Israel. In fact, there have been many instances in which the US has hindered the military progress of Israel.

Aside from basic surveilance to watch for growth of terrorist training camps and weapons of mass destruction (as all nations should be concerned with to a degree), being over there and supporting these efforts is none of our government's business. My nation's leader talking about putting democracy to the savages involves us in a war that has been dressed up to be about a lot of other things than what it really is about: religion and oil. Christianity plays a tremendous part in this and gets many of our people killed. That was my point. Superstition, as it always has done, ends up promoting hatred and war. I wish it weren't so.

It seems like you can take the man out of the church, but it is harder to take the church out of the man. Many of your prejudices about Jews come from the same church that you have so noisily rejected. Israel is not full of Sadducees and Pharisees running around in robes, and Jews are by no means monolithic in their opinions regarding Israel, religion or anything else. Many non-religious Jews are very nationalistic, and there are many ultra-orthodox religious Jews that vehemently oppose the state of Israel. If you read my writing you will see that I am no great fan of christianity, and I don't care for any type of religious fundamentalism. On this we agree. My point is this: to say that the US is fighting and dying for Jewish interests is irresponsible and dangerous. Our people have been killed in the past for far lesser claims.


Addendum: Shortly after I published this post, Mr. Holman wrote a comment apologizing for any offense. It would seem that Mr. Holman is a man of integrity with a truly open mind. While we don't need to agree on everything, Mr. Holman has demonstrated that his ego does not stand in the way of his knowledge, and that is very impressive indeed.

25 comments:

John W. Loftus said...

Just in case your readers don't read all of the comments after Joe's post, let me share what I said here on your blog:

I don't talk about my political beliefs here much at all. I visited Israel in 1989, and I stayed in the homes of some Jewish people. While I do think conservative Christians support the Jews no matter what, I also know that many Muslims think that Israel should be decimated. I tend to support Israel, but not unthinkingly. They made peace with Egypt, but how do they make peace with a people who are committed to their destruction, like Hamas? There are humanitarian reasons for supporting Israel. They are a lone democracy in that part of the world. But if we stopped helping them they would likely be destroyed. Would that be what it takes to bring peace to that part of the world? Would militant Muslims stop there?

------------

Actually, on second thought, I don't know if they would be destroyed or not. Most people thought they would be defeated in 1948: "Virtually everyone expected then to lose." [Paul Johnson Modern Times]. But they kicked some ass...as they did again in the six day war.

Joe E. Holman said...

I don't disagree with most of the things you mentioned here. But I know how Christian fundyism undercuts American motivations.

I still believe dangerous Christian influence plays a big part in the war effort and in foreign affairs. However, I have come to see that my reference to American soldiers fighting and dying in Jewish wars was a bit drastic and overstated, as well as fundamentally inaccurate.

I apologize for any offenses given and will make a complete addendom in my article and comments on the Debunking Christianity Blog. You were right to point out that if this war was religiously aimed, then attacking Iran would be the perfect thing to do. I realize this is correct. I did not intend to convey the idea that religion was [b]all[/b] there was to it, but the statement I made was inaccurate nonetheless, and for it I apologize.

(JH)

The Jewish Freak said...

John W. Loftus: Thank you for including your comment here. Your words are appreciated.

The Jewish Freak said...

J.E. Holman: You are indeed a man of integrity with a truly open mind. My initial impression of you was wrong, and for that I apologize. I sincerely hope that we can all work together to keep the fundamentalist agenda out of government, not just here, but all over the world.
I will amend my original post to reflect your true character.

Stacey said...

I do appreciate Mr. Holman's apology, but I have to say I cringed when I read what he wrote.

Everything he said was either incredibly offensive or just patently false.

Your answers were dead-on, Jewish Freak. I have no idea what you do for a living, but you would make one hell of a columnist.

Thank you for your open mind, Mr. Holman. JF has made brilliant points that I hope you won't ever forget.

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...

Freak, great post.

John, it looks like you have great first hand insight. One thing I would like you to think about: everyone says America's support keeps Israel alive, I actually go the other way and say that US Aid keeps the Palestinians alive. Israel spends a whack of dough on defense. If spending the money created a fallen economy, Israel would have to deal with the Palestinians the way an unscrutinized country would if it was faced with suicide bombings and missile attacks. Imagine if Mexico tried to get Texas back by sending in suicide bombers on school buses and firing rockets into residential areas. Mexico would be a giant parking lot.

JeHolman, that was very noble of you to openly correct yourself based on new information and dialogue.

The Jewish Freak said...

Stacey: You are way too kind, but thank you.

Bacon: Good insights as always!

jazzycat said...

Jewish freak,
Looks like you have done a masterful job of defending your position.

Now if only we right-wing Christian fundamentalists could get our message out as well as you have done. We keep getting lumped with the crazies like Pat Robertson who does not speak for true conservative Christians. The last thing we want would be a theocratic government. I am for total freedom of religion, free enterprise, and free just about everything. This is not to say that I do not have as much right to be for and against social policy and legislation as anyone else. Just in case no one has noticed conservatives consistently come down on the side of freedom and less government control over our lives than liberals and I have noticed most atheists are liberal. Also most conservative Christians are also politically conservative.

Jazzycat

Steve said...

john w. loftus - i really don't see how living on only the Israeli side helps a person understand the entire conflict. ???

Also, you talk about militant muslims, what about articles like these, talking about Palestinian Christian suicide bombers?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/821425/posts

bernarda said...

American soldiers are surrogates fighting Israel's war. For instance, the Neo-cons invented the war on Iraq out of the blue. Why, because they are in the great majority jewish intellectuals who are Israel-firsters. They all have close ties to Israeli political movements.

American zionist groups put Israel before the interests of the American people. From the American Jewish Committee site:

"American Zionist groups as spokesmen for American Jews on Israel-related issues has been taken over by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a lobbying group), the national "defense" organizations, and the JCPA. Most American Zionist organizations today are affiliated with Israeli political parties, either directly or through informal relationships. These include the Zionist Organization of America, originally the American voice of the centrist General Zionists but in recent years an increasingly vocal advocate of hawkish policies; Meretz USA, representing the Meretz Party, itself a merger of left-of-center parties, with the old Mapam Party as its lynchpin; the Labor Zionist Alliance (LZA), the voice of the Labor Party, with the old Mapai Party as its lynchpin; the Religious Zionists of America (RZA), an outgrowth and the American voice of the religiously centrist Mizrachi (now the National Religious Party) in Israel; and the Association of Reform Zionists of America (ARZA), the Zionist arm of the Reform Movement; Meretz USA, ditto for the Conservative Movement. Most of these and other groups are rooted historically in their counterpart parties in Israel."

http://www.ajc.org/site/c.ijITI2PHKoG/b.877025/apps/nl/content3.asp?content_id=%7B264ACE52-7D7D-4A4F-BCA5-076A83293601%7D¬oc=1

They are beholden to Israeli political groups. If the link doesn't work, look up "A Primer on the American Jewish Community" at the AJC site.

For a description of Israeli racism and apartheid today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1703244,00.html

For those who can't or don't like to read like atheistbacon, you can see this conference given by Norman Finkelstein where he outlines the falsehoods of zionism.

http://www.workingtv.com/finkelstein.html

Bacon Eating Atheist Jew said...

Steve, you are talking about one madman. And how many suicide bombers have turned out to be Christian? Why even bring up that article.

Bernarda, your rhetorical campaign in support of the assmonkeys isn't working.
Support for Palestinians in Europe is falling fast.

Poll: Europe easing anti-Israel sentiment

JERUSALEM, June 4 (UPI) -- A new poll says support for Palestinians has fallen among European "opinion elites."

Pollster Stan Greenberg said that while there has not necessarily been "a rush to Israel," there has been a "crash" in backing for the Palestinians, the Jerusalem Post reported.

Greenberg conducted the surveys for the Israel Project, a U.S.-based non-profit organization devoted to educating the press and the public about Israel, the newspaper said.

Three years ago, 60 percent of French respondents said they took a side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- and of that 60 percent, four out of five backed the Palestinians. Today, by contrast, 60 percent of French respondents did not take a side in the conflict, and support for the Palestinians had dropped by half among those who did express a preference.

Three years ago, Greenberg said, the conflict was perceived "in a post-colonial framework." Today, he said, Europeans "are focused on fundamentalist Islam and its impact on them."

jim said...

That is a Super Post, JF, much to be learned from that. I fully believe that man (and others) should listen to what you say and gain some insight into Israel and the World. Not one soldier believes the fight is for Israel, only the pantywaists mouthing this crap back home. The soldiers know what the fight is for, you said it right.

bernarda said...

Is what American soldiers believe at all relevant? Here is more of what American soldiers believe:

"The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”"

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075

This despite the 2004 911 Commission stating that there was no relationship between Saddam and Al-Qaida and 911. The American military is just very good at brainwashing.

The Jewish Freak said...

Steve and Bernarda:
I know you're speaking, but all I hear is blah blah blah...I love terrorists...blah blah blah...

The Jewish Freak said...

Bacon: Thanks for the info. It's about time those Europeans came to their senses.

The Jewish Freak said...

Jim: Thank you. Israel needs friends like you.

The Jewish Freak said...

Jazzycat: Your comment was fascinating. I can appreciate your point of view. I myself lean to the right in my political views, and I will defend yours and everyone's right to practice their faith in this great country. I just don't want religion in the official public arena (schools etc..) and I certainly don't want religion masquerading as science in the classrooms. If you believe in less governmental control, then you would certainly agree that the government has no business pushing *any* religion on us.

Anonymous said...

blah, blad, so you think Norman Finkelstein love terrorists too?

The only terrorists in Palestine are the zionists.

The Jewish Freak said...

Anon: Zionists don't fly airplanes into buildings, (nor do they celebrate those attacks) now shoo.

Stevin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Stevin said...

Freak, an interesting debate. Well done. I'm a fan of Michael Medved. While I agree that he is a kiss-ass, I think his reasons are valid. I appreciate the support Israel receives from Christians. And, I'll continue my appreciation until they try to convert us.

Anon, whenever an innocent Palestinian is killed by Israelis, the Israelis apologize and grovel and lament the killing. Whenever an innocent Israeli is killed by a Palestinian, the Palestinians celebrate.
A terrorist is not just defined by his actions, but by the motivations behind those actions.

Anonymous said...

Israelis are not called terrorists because they primarily kill Palestinians in Palestine. They do have death squads though that go around the world killing people. Israeli television and press had a report on it recently.

Palestinians are called terrorists even though they primarily kill zionists occupying their land.

Israelis have killed more Americans than the Palestinians have. Just take the single case of the USS Liberty.

The Jewish Freak said...

Anon: It must be the worldwide Jewish conspiracy at work again.

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